There are two desks facing each other in Rufus Norris’ office. The Director and CEO of the National Theatre is sharing his unshowy room on the South Bank with his successor, Indhu Rubasingham, during this year of transition for the National Theatre.

Norris will leave the job he will have done for a decade in July 2025 – although, his final programmed play (suitably, David Eldridge’s End in the Dorfman) will open in December 2025. I can think of few professionals at their level who could work so snugly together for so long. Succession this isn’t.

Looking back, Norris remembers how he almost didn’t apply for British theatre’s prime position. He had been an associate at the National and the Young Vic, but felt the post was beyond him. When the National’s then chief Nicholas Hytner sounded him out, Norris didn’t take it seriously. It was Norris’ partner, the writer Tanya Ronder, who encouraged him. ‘She said: “What’s the show or the film you wouldn’t be able to make which would mean you regretted applying?”.’ There wasn’t one.

The couple have two children, then teenagers, and he recalls that ‘the elder one said, “Great, OK, go for it!”, and the younger one: “No, don’t do it because I won’t see you”. And he was right,’ Norris reflects. Yet after five interviews over five months the family got used to the idea and he got the gig.

The early months were tough. As well as settling into the job, Norris was committed to directing a film of London Road, Alecky Blythe’s musical about the impact on a community after the murder of five women and Behind the Beautiful Forevers, David Hare’s adaptation of Katherine Boo’s book about a Mumbai slum – and ‘moving house!’, he adds.

His resilience helped. As one of six kids, Norris spent much of his childhood in Ethiopia, Malaysia and Nigeria where his father worked as a university lecturer. ‘I got into lots of scrapes. I learnt that there is nothing wrong with fear.’

He did, however, have gaps in his knowledge. ‘I’m not very educated,’ he says, modestly. He didn’t go to university and claims he was unfamiliar with the theatrical canon. All the directing and co-writing he had done had always been collaborative, new writing-based. ‘Also, I could have done with a PPE degree just to understand the way the government works,’ he laughs.

He cites Lisa Burger, then Executive Director and Joint CEO, as ‘pivotal’. Still, he had to confront his weaknesses. ‘I have a fear of conflict. I am late in decision-making sometimes.’ The best advice Hytner gave him was that ‘a quick no is almost as good as a yes.’ When I ask what advice he has for Rubasingham he is less prescriptive. ‘People can tell you wise things…but you’ve got to live it,’ he says.

And live it he has, focusing on four priorities during his time as Director: writers, representation, reach and sustainability.

With the first, a New Work department was created by moving the Literature department to the National Theatre Studio’s home near the Old Vic in Waterloo, to create a writing hotspot. Many of the plays seeded there have bloomed including Nye (five years in the making), The Witches (around eight) and existing works, such as the comedy Alterations by the Guyana-born British writer Michael Abbensetts. The latter, set in a tailor’s shop and first staged in 1978, came through the Black Plays Archive, has been further developed at the New Work department, and is in the National’s next season.

This long-term plan didn’t help with Norris’ first season which he had to scramble. His decision to keep the temporary stage The Shed gave him four stages to fill. It was seat-of-the-pants stuff.

Everyman, his first show as boss, went into rehearsals with eight pages of script. ‘I only managed to get [the writer] Carol Ann Duffy on board three months before for rehearsals.’ He was helped by playwright Ben Power (The Lehman Trilogy), who became deputy artistic director and others, ‘but it was quite bumpy’.

Yet looking back over his term – by the time he leaves he will have overseen 173 shows on the South Bank – you are reminded of the bravery and broadness of his programming and the hits; including Dear England James Graham’s play about Gareth Southgate (Norris has a call with Graham the day we meet to discuss an update), The Father and the Assassin by Anupama Chandrasekhar, The Motive and The Cue, Jack Thorne’s play about Burton and Gielgud’s Hamlet, Sondheim’s Follies, but also Helen Edmundson’s adaptation of Andrea Levy’s Windrush novel Small Island and important works such as Grenfell: in the words of survivors, and joyous ones – Inua Ellams’ Barber Shop Chronicles. Produced by Norris with Jeremy Deller and 14-18 NOW, we’re here because we’re here was a magnificent feat as 1500 volunteers, dressed in uniform, appeared around the UK to commemorate the first battle of the Somme. It reached 30 million people.

He has been a different leader, without the bombast of some incumbents, overseeing the theatre with kindness in a time that demanded change. The National has adapted to its shrinking subsidy but it doesn’t stop Norris speaking out for crucial government investment in the sector. He will leave the place in excellent financial shape, with fundraising now necessarily an increased source of income. The theatres have been as full as ever and the audience more diverse.

The latter is very much part of his second aim, to improve representation. ‘It makes the work better, it’s the right thing. But it takes time. People need the opportunity to grow, the opportunity that had historically been denied them,’ he says. Last season (23/24), over half the writers and directors on stage at the South Bank were women and more than a quarter from the global majority. He has no tolerance for bullying, especially when couched as artistic genius. ‘I don’t believe in conflict being a great foundation of good art,’ he says.

His third aim was to increase the reach of the work. Many National Theatre shows have toured and a greater proportion of audiences are seeing National Theatre work outside of London. This year National Theatre Live broadcast its 100th title Nye live from the Olivier to cinemas and National Theatre at Home, the streaming service, is now in 184 countries. And while 700,000 people watched a show on the South Bank last year, the global audience was 19 million. The National Theatre Collection – a free streaming service for UK state schools – has been watched by one in four secondary school pupils.

He also knew – aim four – he must tackle sustainability and the challenges presented by Denys Lasdun’s Grade II*-listed building. The architect Paddy Dillon and Burger, alongside a number of leading theatre-makers including significant input from the National Theatre, have created the Theatre Green Book, a method for sustainable theatre. The latest innovation is The Green Store, where costumes, props and sets will be stored and shared with others in the industry, hoping to create a circular economy by encouraging reuse.

He has said the National is targeting being net zero by 2030. Will it? ‘We are moving positively in that direction,’ he says. ‘But whatever we do on stage is not going to affect the energy that is lost here,’ he says, pointing to a leaky, listed window. Talks with energy and engineering firms are in motion. In March, the government announced an unprecedented £26.4 million investment in their stage infrastructure, and the National Theatre has launched a wider fundraising campaign, Stories Start Here, for a wider capital programme, delivering vital upgrades to the building which, in some places, has not been touched since 1976.

Norris cycles to work every day from his home in South London and swims regularly, but he admits that he was burnt out after Covid when he ‘never worked harder’. ‘I am a natural optimist but the last ten years have blunted that,’ he says. ‘I am far more of a pragmatist these days.’ He is proud of the work he and Burger did to secure the Cultural Recovery Fund (CRF) for the sector, but one of his regrets is that he wasn’t able to win government support for the freelancers.

The theatre received a loan of £20m from the CRF; the first repayments are due in March 2025. Would he have stayed on longer had it not been for Covid? ‘No. It’s time for someone else to take the helm. Change is healthy, and I wouldn’t want the work to stagnate artistically by staying too long.’

Instead, Norris will take a break. Sort of. Ronder is Scottish and come July they will move to Fife for a year. No, he will not be running a theatre there, but has had conversations about film projects and is considering writing a book, mining his diaries. He notes that National Service, former National boss Richard Eyre’s memoir, came out six years after he stood down. No rush, then.

Of course, his last season is packed with new plays as well as the welcome return of some popular productions: Dear England, Nye and London Road. Will he miss it? ‘Yes,’ he says. ‘I will miss the people.’ He plans to distract himself with cold water. ‘I love sea swimming and kayaking and the good thing about both is that if you don’t concentrate, you’re in for it,’ he deadpans.

Perhaps he will return to direct for Rubasingham? ‘I think it’s important for Indhu that I bugger off and leave her to it’, he says with grace. Yet I can’t help but think that, like a kayak, he might be pulled back in by the tide.

© Alex O’Connell, 2024
Alex O’Connell is a London-based journalist and former arts editor of The Times.